FLIGHT 851
It was a cold morning at Calgary International Airport on January 24, 2003. As temperatures dropped to minus 6.3°F. Flight attendants Brian, Paula, and Sue began boarding passengers onto US Flight 851. The three knew that the FAA prohibits flying while frost or ice is present on any wing surface. As they looked out the windows, they saw patches of frost along the wings.
This observation was verified by the Calgary Ground Crew, who wrote the following in an irregularity report:
“At 6:15, my deicing partner Jeff Switner approached a member of the flight crew and, asking if they were going to require a deice. They said no, that they were fine. We were both surprised, because we could see the frost on the wings and fuselage.”
Despite the presence of frost on the wings, the Capt and FO began pushing Flt 851 back for departure. Frantic to prevent any unsafe takeoff, the
FA’s approached the FO and told him that passengers had seen frost on the wings and were concerned about not de-icing. Flt 851 then pushed back into position and deiced.
With quick thinking, the FA’s averted a possible catastrophic safety violation. Yet, when they reported events of that day to the FAA, they weren’t hailed as heroes. They were sued.
THE LAWSUIT
On November 20, 2006, the first officer sued Brian, Paula, and Sue in Maricopa County, AZ. The original lawsuit alleged three different causes of action: Defamation, Tortious Interference With Contract, and Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress.
At his deposition in March 2007, the FO admitted that frost was, in fact, present on the wings of the aircraft:
WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP
Brian, Paula, and Sue have paid for their legal defense out of their own pockets. Despite the fact that they were acting in their capacity as airline employees when they reported the events of January 24, 2003, the airline has so far refused to help them in any way with their defense. In fact, the airline has even refused a request from all the parties (even the first officer) that they be prevented from flying with the first officer who is suing them.
FA’s should be allowed to report safety violations, without the threat that they will be dragged into court and have to face the threat of a frivolous lawsuit. Please consider contributing to their legal defense fund, so that they can continue to fight for the right for anyone to report safety violation, whether that person be a member of the flight crew, ground crew, or simply a passenger.
Brian, Paula, and Sue have spent over $65,000 of their own money so far in defending against this meritless lawsuit. They are headed to trial in 2010 and need all the help they can get! Please consider helping them by clicking on the link below. This will direct you to the chipin link: www.helpflightattendantcrew.blogspot.com
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51 comments:
Good job guys, I wonder what could have happened had you not deiced?? And I am really concerned about the f.o. if he is under emotional distress I hope either he or the airline had enough sense to see that he is not flying in that condition!! Again on behalf of all the people that fly thank you for keeping us safe, you guys do a lot more than serve cokes
This whole thing seems so bizzare. I am curious to hear the entire story because I'd like to fully support my crewmembers. So far this FO seems crazy!?!?! Anxious to hear more. Unbelievable!!!!
According to their posting on the AFA website discussion board, they are going to the media this week. Bet it never happens. This is a ridiculous blog.
You got to be kidding me! This whole dipiction of the events are wrong. There are two sides. This FO is a great guy, and has been wrongly accused!
DO NOT GIVE THEM MONEY!!!!!
The facts are online at Superior Court of Arizona website. There are not 2 sides to this story. He was definately in a hurry...Safety not an issue for them, just the flight attendants as they are trained.
Doesn't it make you wonder why the union, FAA, and the company have not backed these flight attendants? I have been curious about this whole thing since it went public and have talked to pilots on my layovers. The main consensus is that if this crew had pushed back from the gate needing to be de-iced that would have gotten them fired because they fully intended to fly an aircraft that was unsafe. Even though this crew went back to the gate to de-ice (because the flight attendants said there was ice on the wing), the pilots would have still gotten fired or violated for the "intent" of taking off without de-icing. Well, since the pilots are still here, and according to the posting by flytchick on the AFA discussion board that started this whole blog, the F/O has never missed a day of work since this incident. Something is very wrong with this whole story. I'm also wondering why the "solictitation" of money. I have been told by other flight attendants that one of these individuals is building a vacation home and drops down to 40 every month. Sounds like money isn't a problem for at least one of them. I can barely make it working 80 hours if I'm lucky. Not one red cent from me.
To the people that are questioning this..I know this crew. Everyone was deiced that morning but their aircraft. WE ALL know that we are trained to air on the side of safety. Our contract section 27H states company should have indemnified them. The media and The New Times Weekly will cover entire story within this week. I know these FA's are struggling financially. The one that was attacked for building a vacation home, first of all you need the true facts before typing on this blog. They have mortgaged EVERYTHING to cover their legal defense. To all of you that are struggling financially, they dont want your $$, but everyone that can help..they need it. In solidarity..IFLYAWA2
I just heard about this story from an article in the Phoenix New Times.
I understand the financial pressures, but have you not sued the airline for refusing to cover legal fees?
On his marketing blog, Dr. Tantillo recently named US Airways a "brand winner" for attention to 'core brand essentials,' such as safety, for the competency of pilot and crew that were able to avoid disaster on the Hudson. Tantillo's full post
With all the media attention currently being paid to US Airways--and specifically with it being lauded for its safety--this is the perfect time to gain the attention of major news outlets and get the support that you need to fight this.
Flight attendants ARE NOT professionally trained to operate aircraft. Flight attendants are waiters/waitresses in the sky who should be serving passengers in the usual traditionally poor service and complain about their overpaid/underworked union jobs. I support the pilots in this case. Do they need contributions? I will give to them.
IN REGARD TO MARK M. YOU ARE SO RIGHT THATS ALL THEY DO IS WAIT ON DICK HEADS LIKE YOU.IM SURE THEY HAVE NO SAFETY TRAINING OR PROTOCAL PRCEDURES,COME ON DUDE PULL YOUR HEAD OUT.I IMAGINE LAST WEEK WHEN THE PLANE WHEN DOWN IN HUDSON RIVER THE FLIGHT ATTENDENTS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF THE PLANE SAFELY. THESE CREWS WORK AS A TEAM AND WHEN ONE PERSON MAKES A BAD CALL ITS THE TEAMS DUTY TO CORRECT IT(LIKE A FAIL SAFE) AND THEY SHOULD BE REWARDED FOR IT NOT SUED AND PUNISHED . SHAME ON THE FO FORTHAT AND SHAME ON US AIRWAYS FOR NOT SUPPORTING THEM.AS FOR MARK M. IM THINKING M. MUST STAND FOR MORRON!!
OK, so the FA's reported ice to the FO, who reported to the Captain and the Captain made the decision to de-ice the airplane. The airplane left "clean" and arrived on time. That should be the end of the story. Flight arrives on time, everyone is happy.
BUT, apparently the Flight Attendants decided to exact some sort of vigilante justice by going beyond a Company irregularity report to file a complaint with the Federal Aviation Administration, which triggered an administrative action which cost the First Officer some $21,000.00 to defend himself from. The First Officer then attempts to recover from the Flight Attendants for recovery of the harm they caused.
The safe operation of a flight requires teamwork. From the ramp agents to the Dispatchers to the Flight Attendants and Pilots. The Flight Attendants did their job and the system worked. Their attempt at going “above and beyond” to exact revenge against the First Officer lead to the problem they now find themselves in.
I support the First Officer. The Captain has the responsibility although he may have delegated authority. If the FO's involved at all, it is because the Attendants targeted the guy.
Is there any truth to the fact that this may be a love triangle gone bad??? Sounds like maybe the FO may have dumped a FA and now she wants revenge. We all know FAs sleep around with flight crews and passengers. I am thinking there is much more to this than being told.
Maybe someone can answer this question... WHY ARE MALE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS ALWAYS GAY????
uh...they aren't always gay. in fact..i think that i've rarely had a gay flight attendant. at least not one that was obviously gay.
Exactly how much de-icing/anti-icing determination training has a flight attendant had? ZERO.
Do your job and let the FLIGHT crew do theirs.
And yes, most of them are openly gay, you just don't fly enough if you've seen otherwise
Since this has been recorded in the courts system, I assume the identify of the parties involved are public record. Can someone please A) Identify the full names of the parties involved, or B) Link the court documents, or C) The specifics such as dates of charges, so I can look the documents up myself.
Proflig8tor - Wow - a voice of reason. Your posting is spot on and I am glad to see that some are getting beyond the theatrics that seem to have been involved. As a "trainer" for the airline, are you telling me that Paula Walker's only recourse was to lie that passengers were concerned about the ice on the wing when in fact not one passenger had said anything? That just does not make sense. If you are a trainer then you should know how to deal with situations and communicate with the flight crew without lying. When she closed the flight deck door she basically said that everything in the cabin was ready to go. She should have spoken up - NOT closed the flight deck door and voiced her opinion and concern. You are not going anywhere if the flight deck door is not closed. Once again - if there was ANY wrongdoing then the FAA/Company would have violated or fired this crew. It didn't happen. I am amazed that anyone is giving any amount of money to this. When you read the story it just does not make sense. As a flight attendant I have much more questions than answers after reading this story.
Seriously, have any of you read a Flight Attendant Manual? We have specific instructions as to verifying the wing for contaminants and to advise the Flight Deck if we see ANYTHING. Who are the pilots to contridict? They are in the FRONT of the airplane, not near the wings, which the FAs have access to quite easily. What harm would have been done to just de-ice and be on their way, instead of arguing the fact. It's just like the TSA trying to "catch" pilots and FAs with alcohol on their breath. They report it and it goes down on the books, usually ruining the careers of those that might be innocent. Give these people a break. Don't send them money, but don't treat them as stupid, especially since they are TRAINED PROFESSIONALS, and this could have been avoided had the FO not gotten a big head.
Brad,
The proper reply when the Flight Attendant brings a safety concern to your attention is "thank you." Even if we pilots happen to disagree, we still want to know what's going on and we need to keep those lines of communication open.
No one has reported what the FO did exactly. We do know the airplane was de-iced, so somewhere, someone made the right decision.
Procedurally, the FO prepares and configures the airplane for de-icing and usually handles the radio coordination. He must have done that job at some point.
An inter cabin dispute could and should have been handled without blowing up in the public arena.
Regards,
Prof.
Dan,
Maybe there was not ice sticking to the airplane. After reading the temp. it is entirely possible, if the airplane was also that temperature or colder (as it would be after a flight) that it was too cold for frozen precipitation to stick to the airframe. Snow will simply blow off a cold airframe with the slightest breeze, IF the conditions are right.
De-icing costs the pilots nothing. It costs the airline several thousand dollars. The airport makes a profit on their service and they have a monopoly - can't go anywhere else.
It seems like an odd decision, but the pilots (and the entire crew) have both the duty and the common interest in the passengers' (and their own) safety. It is possible the First Officer reported correctly to the Captain. In any even, it is the Captain's decision and he's responsible.
The assumption here appears to be that the pilots were willing to take off with an unsafe aircraft. FAs and pax were telling them the jet had ice on the wings and the crew was supposedly ignoring all these warnings and were going to press on and defy death. Makes no sense. Gotta be more to this story -- and is possibly why no FAA or company action was taken against the pilots. There is bad info here too. You CAN take off with frost on the bottom of wings -- I know the bottom is not in question here probably, but this blog's info is inaccurate on that point. Also, any pilot in their right mind who got reports of ice from the cabin would go back and visually check prior to takeoff. The pilots might have intended to see if fuel moving through the wings, or temps rising prior to takeoff melted the frost prior to takeoff -- something the FAs know nothing about. But, since their judgement was being second-guessed by FAs and pax, returning for deicing was the only prudent thing to do with today's litigious society (whether they needed deicing or not). They should have just debriefed it amongst the crew, but it sounds as if the FAs became vindictive and now have their butt in a legal wringer. The FAA and America West apparently do not agree with the FAs account.
Only an IDIOT would donate money to these FAs... F**K them.. I am sick and tired of these union workers trying to destroy our industries. FAs are waiters/waitresses in the sky at one time they were good looking and happy people. now they are OLD, OVERWEIGHT, UGLY and MISERABLE. THis is why I never ever fly US carriers internationally... the foreign carriers have prettier flight attendants thanks to NO UNIONS!!
Would someone please post these FAs real names and the link to the court record?? Or give me info and I will find the court record on the US COURT SYSTEM which I have access to. Its time to settle this once and for all and get these FAs names out in public view for trying to extort money from flight crews. The internet is a powerful tool.
This is truly a sad tale of what some of our airline crews have become. Truly sad.
When the 3 flight attendants decided to take this to the FAA and go after the first officers job, they also must accept the responsibility of their actions. The first officer apparently paid large legal fees to be totally exonerated by the company and the FAA. The flight attendants must now accept that the first officer is going to sue them for the money he put out plus hopefully punitive damages as well.
Like others that have responded, there has to be more to this story than is being told.
I like the theory about there being a love triangle here and somebody got dumped and is now seeking revenge.. You know how flight attendants get jealous of each other... Sounds like a threesome or foursome gone bad... hey maybe they can make a video FLIGHT ATTENDANTS GONE WILD and sell it to raise money?
If you want to be pilots then by all means, go and get your licences. They don't let you fly the airplane BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED. Good lord, I hope the pilot wins the lawsuit. Go back to serving drinks and showing people how to fasten their seatbelts.
WOW! $180 so far! Nice support! The FO in this matter has spent $21,000 in his defense of your allegations which were dismissed by the FAA. Next time I see you sitting on your jumpseat reading a book, magazine, knitting a sweater, or anything not in accordance to prescribed FAA mandated safety rules and policies while "in flight," I will mention this in my report to the FAA about your safety violations.
Here are the names:
Paula Walker, Brian Shunick, and Sue Burris
I would be VERY CONCERNED if any of these 3 were on my flight. I am writing USAIR to request they be placed on LEAVE pending the outcome of this trial. THe last thing we need is a FA freaking out over this matter and putting passengers lives at risk.
They are obviously disgruntled employees who cant work with flight crews. What if the flight crew declares an emergency and these FAs decide there is NO emergency and question the flight crews???
US AIR would be advised to suspend these people without pay pending the outcome of this trial.
Sounds like most of you are employees of US Airways or married to a pilot. I'm neither but I do fly occasionally and it will never be on US Air again. The FO will deice if a lowly passenger complains about ice but not if a flight attendant does. Now that's sound logic! I hope this does go to trial and I'm on the jury. The FO won't get a dime!!
Mark M, your are a moron!! Nice investigative reporting finding their names, it's only been mentioned a dozen times what newspaper the article was written in. And you seem like a real class act calling the flight attendants "waitressess". Go back to your homophobic cave and leave real life to the rest of us.
Once again FLIGHT ATTENDANTS are nothing more than waitresses in the sky... nothing more than a flying HOOTERS GIRL only HOOTERS GIRLS are at least good looking. Get back to serving drinks and picking up trash -- LET THE TRAINED PROFESSIONALS FLY THE PLANE!!!
i found picture of the FAs Paula doesnt look too bad. I will volunteer for a Flight Attendants Gone Wild with Passenger Video which we could sell to raise money to help you. Maybe you could dump some drinks on me ,tie me up with seatbelts and then we join the 6mile-high club? Wil you wear a short uniform with stilleto heels?
Mark M,
Are you looking for attention or do you truly need professional help? I would suggest increasing your medication.
Ignore the troll people and maybe, just maybe, he'll go away! For the record, the flight attendants didn't run to the FAA with this. When they reported it to their inflight department, it was then that the supervisor got the FAA on the phone. It's pretty simple really....two wrongs don't make a right and suing people who clearly don't have 2 million dollars is not only a waste of the courts time but also taxpayer money.
I back the f/a's on this one! People that are not in the airline world don't understand what we go thou.. It would not surprise me if mark m was not the FO! If I saw ice on the wing I would have done the same thing! It's not the f/a's problem if their sup. Called the FAA.
Mark did you get turned down by a male flight attendant? And btw mark last summer I evac a 767 in under 60 sec so u can kiss my ass!
I flew for 10 years and dealt with ego's like this FA. I'm not sure how he was defamed but the smoking gun in this case is the deice crew wrote a report stating that this flight was only flight not deicing.
I will support these FA's.
BTW, the FAA doesn't care if we read on the jumpseat.
I still think Flight Attendants Gone Wild video would be best way to raise money. Maybe a sequel Flight Attendants and Passengers Gone Wild????
Thank God for attendants like you!!
Again,
Thank God for attendants like you!!
This story reminded me of a flight long ago from Ontario to Phoenix. I, as always, sat in a window seat behind the wing. Upon departure, I noticed a small trail of what appeared to be hydraulic fluid dripping off the wing between the engine and fuselage. I wanted to tell the captain but did not want to cause a riot or unnecessary commotion, which could do more damage than the small leak. I felt confident that the tank capacity would easily sustain the short flight. So I started counting the DPM (drips per minute) to help the time along. It worked, we landed, I was the last to exit the plane, and proceeded to the cockpit to alert the crew. I spoke directly to the captain who was preparing for a turn-around flight. Luckily, he was quite appreciative of the information and my tact Re: not alarming the passengers. He asked if I could point it out, and the co-pilot acknowledged that he was leaving the cockpit to take a look at the leak. It leaks much faster when the engines spool up, I told him. He said thanks he would have it checked out before the plane left again. I’m sure he did, but never found out if the plane was grounded or not. I just knew I did the right thing and so did he.
In your case I find it amazing that this sort of legal battle can even exist, let alone go un-paid by someone...anyone...PLEASE!
Have you asked the manufacturer of the de-icing product to help. They don't have much advertizing costs, and they would benefit from a WIN for you in court. If I could afford a dime to help I would, but my house is my main concern right now. I would ask, no, I am begging for a large related company to PLEASE assist you with a major amount of funding and the necessary support to WIN this case and make you examples of the ideal attendants doing the job with the maximum concern for the safety of ALL on board... even the people in the cockpit!
I always have time for de-icing ALWAYS,...don't you?
Gary K. Arizona
The pilots in this case ought to be appreciative, not critical. These F/A's likely saved the pilots jobs, or at least lengthy suspensions. Canadian rules, and conditions attached the Canadian Foreign Air Operator Certificate issued to all airlines authorized to operate into Canada, require all aircraft to be absolutely clean from any contamination on critical surfaces at the time of departure. The Captain does not have the discretion in Canada to depart with even a small amount of contamination - even when he or she believes it is safe to do so - under Canadian Aviation Regulations. In this instance had the deicing crew reported an attempted departure by an aircraft that was not properly deiced, particularly if conditions existed in which other aircraft were being deiced around them, it would have been denied clearance to proceed by ground control until deicing procedures had been completed. Such an incident would have been investigated by Canadian authorities and the airline would have been required to provide not only a plausible explanation of events but assurances that their training programs, including those for cabin attendants, were adequate to prevent a recurrence. Failure to provide both would result in a suspension of the airline's Canadian operating certificate.
All ground icing programs approved for Part 121 carriers require training of both front and back end crew on recognizing hazardous conditions and their duty to take appropriate action depending on their crew position. Furthermore, international operations require adherence to the rules of the host country unless the FARs are more restrictive.
The mind boggles at the stupidity of the pilot's actions, both during the operation of the aircraft and afterwards.
The pilots in this case ought to be appreciative, not critical. These F/A's likely saved the pilots jobs, or at least lengthy suspensions. Canadian rules, and conditions attached the Canadian Foreign Air Operator Certificate issued to all airlines authorized to operate into Canada, require all aircraft to be absolutely clean from any contamination on critical surfaces at the time of departure. The Captain does not have the discretion in Canada to depart with even a small amount of contamination - even when he or she believes it is safe to do so - under Canadian Aviation Regulations. In this instance had the deicing crew reported an attempted departure by an aircraft that was not properly deiced, particularly if conditions existed in which other aircraft were being deiced around them, it would have been denied clearance to proceed by ground control until deicing procedures had been completed. Such an incident would have been investigated by Canadian authorities and the airline would have been required to provide not only a plausible explanation of events but assurances that their training programs, including those for cabin attendants, were adequate to prevent a recurrence. Failure to provide both would result in a suspension of the airline's Canadian operating certificate.
All ground icing programs approved for Part 121 carriers require training of both front and back end crew on recognizing hazardous conditions and their duty to take appropriate action depending on their crew position. Furthermore, international operations require adherence to the rules of the host country unless the FARs are more restrictive.
The mind boggles at the stupidity of the pilot's actions, both during the operation of the aircraft and afterwards.
I will contribte $25 for a picture of Paula in her stewardess uniform in high heels. Let me know.
hey markM, actually you will have to DECREASE your medications. When you don't get them at a drug store, they can make you go a little 'funny'...if you know what I mean.
wow a whole $495 raised. that pays for 1 hr for an attorney? I have an idea - lets put a pole in the plane and these flight attendants wear skimpy outfits and passengers can put $1 bills into their thongs as they pole dance. i crack myself up at times.
hey Mark M......this isn't a PORN SITE! apparently, you are on the wrong site that you usually visit!
MARK M. YOU ARE NO DOUBT AN EDUCATED MAN , LOOKING AT YOUR COMMENTS. YOU 1; DO NOT HAVE THE KNOW HOW TO GAIN INFORMATION . OR 2; YOU ARE A LONELY PERSON WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO . YOU REMIND ME OF A COMMON HOUSE FLY BUZZING AROUND A PICNIC TABLE , NEITHER ONE HAS ANY WORTH , THEY ARE SIMPLY A NUSANCE ! WHY DONT YOU READ THE FACTS AND MAKE A CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENT (GOOD OR BAD) OR CRAWL BACK INTO THE SHIT HOLE YOU CAME OUT OF..
EVERYONE is now aware of the extreme danger of ice on the wings after the tragic crash in Buffalo. I'd venture to bet this lawsuit is dropped Monday (tomorrow) morning. And I can't imagine AmericaWest/USAirways doing anything other than covering your legal expenses now. You'll easily have many people joining your cause... the cause to help you sue the pilot! (A suit that would most likely be quickly & quietly settled out of court.)
TG - You are talking about 2 different incidents. The one here is about the flight attendants talking about deicing BEFORE the plane took off. The latest and tragic incident was because the plane was attempting to LAND in snow and ice in the last minutes of the flight. It was also reported today that the flight crew had the plane on autopilot a violation in landing in icing conditions. These 2 situations are not even remotely related. I still think this blog is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. And the company will not back these flight attendants because it was PROVEN that the pilots did not do anything wrong. The FAA agreed.
AWAFA
Interesting how you waste your time constantly commenting on a "ridiculous blog". If you were to clearly read this "ridiculous" blog you will see that the FA's and EVEN THE FO have asked US Airways to schedule them apart and US Airways refuses to do so! God forbid anything like this ever happens to you as I certainly believe you would no longer think this blog is so "ridiculous".
The FO admitted fault, happens to all of us at one point or another and yet he insists upon going after those that expressed concern. I for one am thankful for their concern and doing whatever it takes to make sure all of those on that flight made it home safely.
I don't get it....The FA's wanted the plane de-iced and it got de-iced. What is the problem? Oh, yeah, it was that this was not enough for the FA's. They then decided to try to have the FO's career taken away by violating him with the FAA. Sounds a bit extreme. They are getting a tit for tat. At least he is not trying to take their jobs away like they did...you know, their ability to support their families... after they all already took a 60% pay cut since '01.
How do I contribute to the pilot's legal fees?
This is the manifestation of a problem ive seen coming for years. Flight attendants that think the entire airline industry revolves around them. It started after 9/11 when (most, not all) FA's thought they were "cops". Not about attempted terror and the like, but about everything in the air.
Let's keep in mind here, that you are ONLY FA's. Let's stick with our job description. You know, coffee tea or milk....two exits front and back.....
See, i can do it and im not even a FA. Now lets see one of you highschool graduate, FA's fly a commercial airliner.
Cool it with the delusions of granduer that many FA's seem to have about themselves and their job. What the hell is a FA doing checking the wings for ice, when there are pillows to pass out.
When a true emergency arises, I hope this FA is as trained in the things she is supposed to know, as she thinks she is about the things she has absolutely no idea about.
I am so pro-pilot on this, i cant even put it into words.
I dont hear the pilot begging for money to pay his legal fees. Fees he didnt choose to have placed on him. On the contrary, this FA chose to bring this frivolous suit to the forefront. Why is she begging for money??
Dont pay this lady a dime!!!!!!!
To Mark M:
Be careful what you wish for, in regards to FA's wearing skimpy outfits and pole dancing. Have you seen how old, fat and mean, most of these FA's have turned into? Unfortunately this isnt the 70's, where FA's had wieght guidelines....
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